Ready made argument

Time and time again I have come across the same arguments from bots. Exactly the same arguments. To be frank, I’m getting sick of it. The arguments are ill thought out, illogical and extremely repetitive. It is boring and frustrating. To help people all over from suffering the same, I have provided the solution.

If you have started having a discussion with a bot and you find yourself going down the stupid argument route, send them here. You can both read this discussion, assume you both made these points and then continue with your conversation, assuming all the following points have been covered. Hopefully, the rest of your discussion can cover new ground and actually be of interest to both of you.

Bot Watcher- Offers a piece of evidence or observation based on fact about MLMs they are worried about.

Bot- How dare you criticise MLMs? You have obviously been in an MLM and lost money on it and left. You now have a grudge against MLMs.

 

 

Bot Watcher- I haven’t been in an MLM. Even if I had, it wouldn’t matter. The evidence/ fact still stands.

Bot- You can’t criticise if you haven’t been in an MLM.

Bot Watcher- So people who have been in an MLM can’t comment. People who haven’t been involved can’t comment. That just leaves the 0.5% of successful MLMers then. BOLLOCKS. Anyone can objectively look at the evidence and make their mind up. Don’t try and stop people from looking at FACTS.

Bot- You must have motives for spreading this information. You must be trying to recruit people into your scheme.

Bot Watcher- No money is being made. No one is being recruited. The motive is to spread awareness.

Bot- Stop being so closed minded and traditional in your thinking. You have been brainwashed by society into accepting a mundane unfulfilling job for poor wages that takes up all your time. Your life is dull and unfulfilled and you are still poor. MLM gives people flexibility, wealth and happiness. Look at this picture of smiling people and yachts and big houses.

Bot Watcher- I am not closed-minded, I am sceptical. This means asking for evidence to back up claims. If the evidence is there then I will change my mind about something. All the evidence points to MLMs being scams. Even income disclosure statements from MLMs state how poorly they pay. I have not seen any evidence to the contrary. Many people live fulfilled lives doing jobs they are trained for, that they enjoy, and are paid well for.

Bot- I don’t understand why you object to the top person earning loads and the people at the bottom earning a smaller amount. All companies are like this. Do you object to all companies?

Bot Watch- No, just MLMs. In normal companies there is a hierarchy where there are differing levels of responsibility, with matching pay levels. In MLM people have to recruit people under them and they are then reliant on these downlines to earn money from. The emphasis is just on getting more people in. Hardly any of these people earn any money. The owners at the top cream off all the profits. Many are billionaires.

Bot- It’s not about recruiting, it’s all about the amazing products, the social aspect and learning new skills.

Bot Watcher- The products are, without exception, over-priced and under quality. The only customer is the distributor. The social side is all fake. The skills learnt could be learnt elsewhere in a proper educational environment, or even self taught. It is always about the recruiting.

Bot- Why are you trying to put people off joining? You are ruining people’s chances of earning money. Think of the people wanting to better themselves by earning a bit of extra cash. You are affecting their income.

Bot Watcher- I am thinking of those people. Mostly women who find themselves in a difficult position and are desperate to make some money. They are being sucked into a scheme that they will never do well in and will lose money. The sooner they leave, the better.

Bot- People can do well in MLMs. The ones who fail are those that thought they could just sit and do nothing and have it handed to them on a plate. In MLM you have to work every minute of every day, sacrifice everything, put the kids in childcare, attend all meetings, go all over the country, buy all the books, ditch any friends and family that are negative, recruit anybody and everybody. Your life has to be about the MLM and nothing else. Be ruthless.

Bot Watcher points to ads from bots stating anyone can do it, it’s easy. Just 10 hours a week around your children for full time wages, car, holidays.

Bot- I have never said anything like that. I have always been completely honest.

Bot Watcher- Yes, of course you have. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!

Bot- We are a legitimate company, we are registered with the DSA and are registered at Companies House.

Bot Watcher- The DSA mean nothing. They are a trade organisation that have represented pyramid schemes. Anyone can register at Companies house.

Bot- You are brainwashed/ in a cult.

Bot Watcher- You joined when you were at a low point in your life when someone promised you great things if you joined them. You attend events where there is loud music, bright lights, repetition. You are deprived of normal social contact and encouraged to break contact with friends and family. You pay for things that you don’t want or need. You are controlled in what you can do, say and think. Your main purpose is to bring new people into the ‘family’ and lie to do this. You are in awe of the great leader. You have been taught how to ignore the true facts and rely on hope for the future. A future where only your new family can help you. You are dependent on them. You are afraid of leaving the group because you will be ostracized, bullied and left to fend for yourself in a world you have become afraid of. You are tired all the time because of late night training and activities you are expected to complete.

 

 

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You are not an Independent Business Owner!

If you are in Multilevel marketing, please stop claiming you are an ‘Independent Business Owner.’

Independent

“adjective- Free from outside control; not subject to another’s authority: an independent nuclear deterrent. The study is totally independent of central government ”

The above definition is from The Oxford English Dictionary.

 

Questions to ask yourself

  • Do you set your own terms and conditions?
  • Can you change suppliers?
  • Can you change the policies?
  • Do you have any say in your activities, over and above what hours you work or the prices you sell at?
  • What are you independent from? Apart from employee rights and wages.

 

 

Business

 “noun.   (SELLING) the activity of buying and selling goods and services:

My brother’s in business.

He’s in the frozen food business.

Our firm does a lot of business with overseas customers.”

This definition is from The Cambridge English Dictionary.
A question to ask yourself
  • How much product do you actually sell to people?

 

There are other definitions of business. One means ‘excrement’ and another is the name given to a group of ferrets. Maybe you own one of these?

 

Owner

1.A party that possesses the exclusive right to hold, use, benefit-from, enjoy, convey, transfer, and otherwise dispose of an asset or property.

This definition is from The Business Dictionary.

Questions to ask yourself

  • Can you sell your business?
  • Can you transfer your business to someone else?

 

 

 

So what are you?

You work for a large corporation, probably based in America, headed by some very rich people.

You pay to work for this corporation.

You are bound by a lot of very restrictive rules.

You can be terminated by the corporation.

You try to bring more people to the corporation so they can pay to work for them.

You are not paid for your time or skills.

You are not paid the minimum wage. You may not be paid at all.

You are not an employee. You have no employee rights.

You are the customer.

You are a victim in a very clever scheme devised to extract money from you.

Multi Level Marketing journey through memes

 

 

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Footnote- A little word on the quotes that are attributed to well known people. They didn’t say them and did not demonstrate any support for Multi Level Marketing schemes!

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This quote is everywhere but I haven’t been able to find any evidence for it. Some people say the quote was originally from Trump. I have been unable to find evidence of that either.  I know it is impossible to prove something wasn’t said but we will have to assume it wasn’t, until proof can be given that he did say it.

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Richard Branson says this on his website. He has been associated with MLMs and even has one himself called Virgin Vie at Home. Clever man, he knows there is money to be made in owning an MLM. I would have to argue that this quote is not applicable to MLMs as it is most certainly not an ‘amazing opportunity’.

 

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I cannot find any evidence that this quote was made by Bill Gates. It is requoted all over the place. A discussion on Wikiquotes couldn’t find any evidence and they pointed out that the phrase goes against a lot of what he DID say and what he believes in.

 

 

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This link investigates quotes and their origins. They discovered the quote comes from a person claiming he got his information from aliens by trance-channeling. He attributed the quote to aliens, it later became attributed to Einstein for some reason. The quote seems to be backing up Attraction Theory which is why MLM supporters seem to be using it.

The things MLMs say (or MLM Bingo)

You may have had discussions with someone promoting a Multi Level Marketing  (MLM) Scheme and found they say some strange things that stop you in your tracks and make you unsure of how to respond. If you haven’t had any of these discussions, prepare yourself because sooner or later, you will. It doesn’t matter which MLM the person is representing, they all use the same arguments.

This phenomenon has led Timeless Vie to come up with an MLM bingo card because they noticed the same themes being brought up in arguments time and time again.

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Here, I will show you the themes I have noticed, and what the truth is. If you hear any of these arguments, point them here so they can see the truth and why you don’t believe them.

 

1. My company is pyramid shaped but it isn’t a pyramid scheme. After all, most companies, and even governments, are pyramid shaped.

They say that most companies or countries have a CEO at the top, then a few high up executives, then senior managers, managers, and finally,loads of people on the shop floor. You may be presented with images like this.Screenshot 2016-05-02 22.17.10

At first, you might think that there is some truth to this, and maybe the fact it is pyramid shaped is irrelevant. The mistake being made here by the MLMs is that they are confusing hierarchical organisations with pyramid schemes.

MLM Myth explains this very well:-

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So, in a hierarchical organisation, people perform different roles, with differing levels of authority. They are paid a wage depending on their role, skills, qualifications etc. In a pyramid scheme people have to recruit as many people as they can to do the same job as themselves. They earn money from these people.

2. You are against MLMs because you failed at it.

I have heard this quite often. For some reason, people in MLMs think that anyone who opposes their scheme must have been a part of one themselves and ‘failed’ at it. I have never been in an MLM. People have said I have failed in one.

I wonder if it is because it is drummed into them so much about MLM being easy and only people who don’t want it or are lazy will fail. They are told that anyone who fails deserves it. Failure and the people who fail become the enemy. They might see people who criticise MLMs as bitter and out to get revenge. After all, why else would anyone have any objections to their perfect, lovely scheme where everyone can flourish and make loads of money?

I have asked people leveling this criticism why they think that. No answers have been forthcoming. Please comment below if you have accused anyone of this, and explain why.

 

3. Of course there is a high failure rate in MLM. It is a business. Traditional businesses fail too.

The rate of people leaving MLMs is notoriously high. This is from MLM Myth. Other MLMs have about the same churn rate. 90% of people will leave within a year.

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Here are some stats for new business failure rates in the US.

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Let’s say a million people start a business of their own and a million people start work for an MLM.

People left after…

Type of work                       Starting          1 year         2 years           3 years        4 years          5 years

MLM                                    1,000,000       10,000           100                   1                      0                      0

Traditional business      1,000,000      900,000         750,000     650,000    550,000        520,000

 

What about in the UK? Here is an article from The Telegraph.

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This is a widely reported statistic from the RSA. To compare with the above chart, in MLM after 5 years, there would be no people left. In the US there would be 520,000 businesses left and in the UK there would be 500,000 left.

Although traditional businesses are at risk of failure, the rates are in no way comparable to the rates in MLM. It’s like comparing crossing a road on a quiet cul-de-sac with running across a motorway blindfolded.

4. You can earn money in an MLM.

You can’t. Unless you own it. This table is from MLM-The Truth,

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5. Other MLMs are scams, this one is different.

Yes, they all say that.

6.  It only takes 5-10 hours a week to earn an income.

No it doesn’t.  It takes over your whole life. You can’t stop spinning those plates for one second or it will all come tumbling down. If you are trying to earn proper money you will be up at 6am and going to bed after 11, most of the time you will have been working. This post shows the personal experiences of people in an MLM.

7. MLM is taught in Business schools.

People claim that Harvard Business School teaches MLM and have studied it. The claim is that they identified three factors that make an MLM likely to be successful. This article blows that apart.

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8. You can have a better work/life balance with MLM. 

No you can’t. It takes up every waking minute of your life. You don’t have a day off, no holiday from it. You may be encouraged to put your children in child care. There are events and meetings and prospecting to do. Again, have a look at this blog post outlining real people’s experiences in an MLM.

 

9. My MLM isn’t a pyramid scheme or illegal because there are products sold.

You can retail products in a pyramid scheme. The key is if you can only earn money by recruiting more people. MLMs will stipulate a monthly amount that has to be purchased so they can say “we are selling products, look! It can’t be a pyramid scheme.” If people in the scheme only make money by recruiting others and earn peanuts/ nothing from retailing, then it is a pyramid scheme.

MLM Watch describes the 5 warning signs that an MLM is a product based pyramid scheme.

  1. Recruiting of participants is unlimited in an endless chain of recruiters recruiting recruiters.
  2. Advancement in a hierarchy of multiple levels of “distributors” is achieved by recruitment, rather than by appointment.
  3. “Pay-to-play” requirements are satisfied by ongoing ‘incentivized purchases.’
  4. The company offers commissions and/or bonuses to more than five levels of “distributors.”
  5. Company payout per sale for each upline participant equals or exceeds that for the person selling the product, creating inadequate incentive to retail and excessive incentive to recruit- and an extreme concentration of income at the top.

 

10. It’s not a scam. My MLM is regulated by the Direct Selling Association.

The DSA have had many pyramid schemes in their ranks before. These companies were saying they were legitimate because of their membership. Just before they were shut down.

Look up Vemma, Trek Alliance, Your Travel Biz and Equinox International.

This blog post has some interesting information about the DSA.

 

11. People not in MLM are living lives of quiet desperation, being wage slaves in their underpaid J.O.B.s (Just Above Broke). MLM can save them from this drudgery and misery.

This just doesn’t ring true for me at all. I have a stable job that I trained for and that I enjoy. I work part time around my family, as do others I work with. I can afford to pay my mortgage, all the bills, and save as well. My house is just how I like it and me and my family are happy. I have friends in the same situation as me. There are, no doubt, some people who are struggling financially and are unable to pay their bills. Is it as widespread as the MLMs will have you believe?

Even if there were a lot of working people upset with their circumstances, MLM would not be the answer. It would make things worse.

12. Everything is governed by the Law of Attraction. If you are positive, good things will happen to you. If you are negative, bad things will happen.

People in MLMs are taught this as part of their ‘mindset’ training. The theory is that everything has vibrations, including thoughts. These vibrations attract similar events with matching vibrations. So when you think you are not going to do well in your ‘business’, you won’t do well. Taken further, the Law of Attraction states that when negative events happen, it is because people brought it upon themselves with their negative thinking. A devastating flood with resulting deaths is due to those people having negative vibrations.

People will find their MLM will not go well. They are taught this is because of their negative mindset. They just have to be positive and assume it will all be fine and then it will be.  This puts the blame on the individual, instead of the dreadful business model. It will also encourage the person to continue trying to make it work, even when all the evidence is pointing to the scheme not working. When the person finally admits defeat and leaves the MLM, they are left with the feeling that it was their fault they failed and they have feelings of shame.

13. People have succeeded in my MLM, I have seen how successful they are and I have seen the huge cheques presented to them.

People are Faking it to Make it. They have to pretend they are doing well to attract more positive events, as promised by the Law of Attraction. If they believe they are doing well, they will eventually do well in reality. People sell their small houses and rent bigger ones. They hire expensive cars, they buy expensive gifts for their downline, all to give the illusion they are doing well. They hope that as a result of all this faking, other people will notice, become curious and start asking how they can achieve the same. The sad reality is that this deception costs money which will eventually run out.

Some people, of course, do get cheques. Here’s some examples of some cheque earners. They look great and something to aspire too. Worth sacrificing everything for an attempt at that maybe?

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How much time and effort and expenses have these people lost? See point 4 for the reality of what 99.9% of people will ‘earn’.

What are the chances someone  in Forever Living will earn cheques like these? Worldwide there are 9.25 million distributors. In 2015 there were 661 of these cheques presented and there were 15% more given out in 2016. This means there were 760 cheques in 2016, out of 9.25 million distributors. This equates to 0.008% of the total. That is one eight hundredth of a percent. Not great odds that it will be you picking up a cheque.

A top FL earner has been exposed by her ex-husband in this blog.  In it, Craig Morgan explains how he funded his wife’s lifestyle and helped pay for the trappings associated with supposedly being successful. She collected one of those cheques but it turns out, according to the husband, she was actually a few hundred thousand pounds in debt. I suspect she isn’t the only one in this position.

 

14. Random figures are thrown about that might look impressive if you just glanced at it, but fall apart pretty quickly if you do even one sum.

Like this one for example from Facebook-

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I confronted them with the truth and a little bit of analysis.

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They deleted the comment and left their inacurate statement with glaring figures showing how bad an investment this is.

Here is another fact that is bandied about like it is a good thing. This is from a Network Marketing site.

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$200 million paid out a day! How many people work in MLMs then? The World Federation of Direct Selling Association puts the number at 100 million. That means people in MLMs earn about $2 a day! And that is the average. We have seen some people earn a lot more than that. Which means a lot of people earn a lot less than $2 a day.

 

 

15. 

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No it doesn’t. Where have these facts come from? First of all, it is treating MLM as an industry in its own right, when really they cover a lot of different industries like healthcare, beauty etc. If it is an industry in its own right, it doesn’t feature in any statistics on industry earnings.

MLM Skeptic investigates this oft-repeated ‘fact’ better than I can.

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16. My MLM product works because it is in the Physician’s Desk Reference (PDR).

This means nothing. The PDR is a book published in the US by a private company that contains information provided by, and paid for, the manufacturers of the products. It is essentially a book of those leaflets you get in packets of tablets. The PDR company do not verify the information or put it through any quality control.

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Inclusion of an MLM product in this book does not lend it any credibility or mean that doctors are happy to prescribe it. Have a look at this analysis by MLM Watch of an MLM’s claim about their product being in the PDR.

Optimals by Ariix is in the PDR. Interestingly, it contains the following.

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I think it is a good idea to have these products in the PDR, so that when people go to their doctor and tell them what they are taking, the doctor can look up what it is. And put them on the correct medication. That is cheaper and might actually work.

17. My MLM’s products are good for health because (insert dubious reason here)

No, your MLM’s product will not work. Your products are cheap, not had the right testing done, and are sold at massively overinflated prices so that everyone can get a cut of the sale. It doesn’t matter that they don’t work because everyone in the scheme is buying it anyway, in an attempt to make money. Excellent analysis here from Lazyman on exactly why the product won’t work.

 

18. You are just a jealous, dream-stealing hater who wants me to fail.

People criticising your MLM are not jealous. They have found out the truth and are either angry you are sucking people into your scheme, or are trying to educate you and others, in an attempt to help you get out.

The ‘dreams’ you speak of have been created by your MLM. They get you to think of some huge thing you want and aim for that, pretending that if you persevere and persevere, you will eventually get it. You won’t get that mansion/ boat/ private school place because you won’t make money. This ‘dream’ is making you stick at it longer. It is an emotional carrot, pulling you in deeper. Here is a page where you can be told how to have lovely dreams and adjust your thinking so that you can  make yourself stick at your MLM for longer. If this looks normal to you, you are probably in a bit deep and need to re-evaluate your situation. If this looks horrific to you, you are well on your way to protecting yourself against these schemes.

 

Here’s a good one, ignore facts people, just dream. Pesky facts.

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The person you are raging against is probably a friend or family member who cares about you and can objectively see what is happening to you. They want to help you. If you are leveling this accusation at someone on a forum, they have probably been led there while looking to help a good friend. They are concerned people and they want to help you.

19. By buying from me, you are supporting a local business, not lining the pockets of a corporation.

I have seen this a few times on the pages of people involved in MLM.

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By buying from an MLM, you ARE helping the CEO buy a 3rd holiday home. The person who owns the company is earning loads of money from the local people trying to sell their stuff. You are not helping a girl get dance lessons or any of that other stuff. You are encouraging the person to limp on a bit longer, and continue to lose money, worsening their financial state.

20. I don’t believe your facts and figures and arguments because…. You are a keyboard warrior, I don’t know your name, You know who I am, it’s not fair. You’re not in the business, you don’t know what you are talking about. Don’t you have better things to worry about? You have too much time on your hands.

It doesn’t matter who the person is, it is the content of the argument that is important. If someone points out that it is illegal to make health claims, it is not a valid counter argument to say ‘you are a keyboard warrior’. Once the discussion is turned to the qualities of the arguer, you know that they are losing the argument. If you can’t argue with facts and figures, give up.

 

 

The next time people involved in MLMs give you ‘facts’, look a little deeper and the truth won’t be far away. Feel free to notify me of any Bingo squares you have noticed that need including on this page. Thanks.

 

Excellent opportunity not to be missed.

Job Description

This position doesn’t have a wage as such. You will be paid commission on the things that you buy from us. This will be a very small amount and the products are things that you probably don’t need.

You will earn a small amount of money from the people that you recruit into the scheme, maybe you will have thousands in your team very soon and then all the little amounts of money will add up. You might not get thousands of people under you.

You can earn a bonus for recruiting people under you in the scheme. This might not be actual money though.  It will be some sort of points system and you’ll feel like you are doing really well because you are collecting these points.

If you collect a lot of points by making my business thousands and thousands of pounds, we might give you a bonus of maybe a few hundred pounds. To continue getting this bonus, you will have to continue bringing in people and buying our products that you don’t need. And making my business thousands and thousands of pounds.

You will be expected to put in every spare hour that you have. And hours that aren’t spare. You can work while eating your dinner, you can sacrifice some sleep, you can turn social events into work.

You will be expected to attend mind control sessions where your mindset will be changed. You will be taught how to think like you are doing well and how to give up everything for the potential of future rewards. Who needs spare time, wages, friends, critical faculties when you can enjoy the thought that maybe you will make it big one day with us?

Person Specification

You need to be able to open your mind to the extent that it becomes so closed that you will only believe things we tell you.

You will have the determination and desperation to do anything we tell you to do, it really helps here if you can let go of any inconvenient morals. Morals like truth telling, trust, being law abiding, not taking advantage of people.

It is desirable, although not essential, that you are highly educated or in a respectable position.  This will lend believability to you and you can use your professional skills and contacts and position of trust to lure more people into the scheme.

It would really help if you had money.  Either savings, equity, a trust fund, maybe a good job.  You could really rise up the scheme quickly if you can buy more products from us and earn lots of points. Also, you could pretend to people you made your money through our scheme.They will be queueing out the door to join you.  If you do not have money, this can be overcome by just pretending that you do.

You have to have access to the internet. If you don’t, you can forget this job now.

Being able to drive helps as you will be traveling all over the place to deliver stock, go to trainings, making You Tube films in your car. If you are traveling on the bus people won’t believe you when you tell them you are earning a multiple six figure income.

You will be a positive person. You will believe, or be willing to train to believe, in the Law of Attraction. This is an amazing opportunity to learn about how the universe works and make you realise how everything is your fault.

You need to have a huge dream. Imagine that dream. Imagine it until you cry. Your dream will come true with us. Only if you do everything properly though. If you leave or do not succeed or do not put enough time in, you obviously don’t want your dream enough. Anyone who tries to tell you this isn’t legitimate, is a dream-stealer. Lose them.

 

Disclaimers

This isn’t a pyramid scheme. We know this because it is possible for the person below you to earn more money than you. Enough said.

If you are accepted into this position and you subsequently fail, it is your fault. If the people under you fail, it is your fault. Everything is your fault.

It is all your fault.

If you can breathe, you will be accepted into this position.

If you somehow, unbelievably decide to leave and forgo the amazing potential future rewards, we will cast you out. You will be nothing to us. We reserve the right to bully you and think of you as a loser.

It is not our fault if you leave and find yourself in debt and friendless and with a garage full of products you don’t want. You joined us of your own free will, it is your fault.

 

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